Base Camp At Bear can Start Phase 1

[Captain Hafski]

Just what we need, more "Low E" guns.

They suck and put out dangerous "snow" unless it's really cold out.

[snoloco]

Everyone else uses low e guns, and they work better and are much more productive since you can run more at once with the same amount of air. It's time for Killington to join the rest of the industry and move on from 50 year old technology. In fact they're doing just that. Over 240 new guns are in the K1 parking lot awaiting installation.

[jimmywilson69]

damn that's a big number. I wonder where they are going to put them.

Also they better get after it! Its almost September!

[rogman]

In colder conditions the Snow Logics outperform the K3000s. It’s no coincidence that making June coincided with the installation of the SL towers along Superstar. However, they tend towards useless as it warms up. Their use along Lower GN down to Ramshead is the most inexplicable WTF installations at K. They typically have to drag K3000s to get that vital stretch open. They should be moved to higher elevation non-essential terrain.

The notion that Killington has not embraced low E is just ridiculous. I’m amazed at the amount of experimentation they do with new guns. Every year I see new types of equipment and if it seems viable, the following year, a bunch more of the same type. My impression is it creates a training problem; new hires have a lot of equipment to learn and it undercuts their widespread usage.

I do have the sense that their tests aren’t particularly scientific, it’s more of grunt, and “this looks good” kind of thing. That approach embeds a lot of institutional knowledge in the old guard, and makes real comparisons difficult, particularly over longer periods of time, and variations in conditions.

I would like to see more calibrated approach. Time series tracking of water and airflow into the gun under test, along with temperature, pressure, and humidity measurements as well. Look at the snow volume produced, water content, along with subjective estimates of quality. Multi-million decisions with lasting impact on the resort are being made. Regardless, their results and decisions overall have been pretty good.

[snoloco]

I also noticed a bunch of new pipe at the bottom of Bear. Not sure where it's going. Maybe for the line relocations for the base camp development.

[newpylong1]

In colder conditions the Snow Logics outperform the K3000s. It’s no coincidence that making June coincided with the installation of the SL towers along Superstar. However, they tend towards useless as it warms up. Their use along Lower GN down to Ramshead is the most inexplicable WTF installations at K. They typically have to drag K3000s to get that vital stretch open. They should be moved to higher elevation non-essential terrain.

The notion that Killington has not embraced low E is just ridiculous. I’m amazed at the amount of experimentation they do with new guns. Every year I see new types of equipment and if it seems viable, the following year, a bunch more of the same type. My impression is it creates a training problem; new hires have a lot of equipment to learn and it undercuts their widespread usage.

I do have the sense that their tests aren’t particularly scientific, it’s more of grunt, and “this looks good” kind of thing. That approach embeds a lot of institutional knowledge in the old guard, and makes real comparisons difficult, particularly over longer periods of time, and variations in conditions.

I would like to see more calibrated approach. Time series tracking of water and airflow into the gun under test, along with temperature, pressure, and humidity measurements as well. Look at the snow volume produced, water content, along with subjective estimates of quality. Multi-million decisions with lasting impact on the resort are being made. Regardless, their results and decisions overall have been pretty good.

It's not fair to say they haven't embraced Low-E, but they are far behind the pack. Snow Logics on Timberline, Caper, Bunny Buster, Lower Chute, Lower GN. Some mixed in on SS and Ovation. Cruise Control, some mixed it on Skye/Bitter/Stash. Impulses on the middle line of Snowshed and the bottom of Superstar. All in all that's about 12 trails out of how many? Very small acreage compared to what either has no fixed equipment or hog towers.

There is no need to perform that type of testing that you describe because it's already been done and they are called flow charts. The calculations even can be made using the amount of snowmaking "bins" that any given mountain has per snowmaking season. That's the number of typical hours at any given wet bulb. Every vendor produces a flow chart so the output can be compared. Of course nothing beats real world experience.

Also the Snow Logics are absolutely useless and should be replaced wholesale. That company won't even be in business much longer, it's hard to get parts. The HKD Impulse has taken the market by storm and most hills have standardized on them for deployment. For a place as large as Killington that's easier said than done, but the investment is worth it, and it removes the training headache. Honestly, it's far easier to hook up air and water hoses wide open on a staged Low-E HKD and just adjust it at the shifter. No more guesswork cracking the water hydrants this way and that.

What we are seeing is good.

[Mister Moose]

Also the Snow Logics are absolutely useless and should be replaced wholesale. That company won't even be in business much longer, it's hard to get parts.

Curious why you say that, when they blow Superstar for a week in late February cold snap, those snow logics put out a heapin helpin of snow, and when cold it's dry talc. A little warmer it's damp talc. Warmer still and its leg grabbing wet clay, but they do shine in the right temps.

[newpylong1]

Key word being the right conditions and this is New England after all. They have no throw, they need high pressure, they are challenging to fix, they make slop unless it's cold, etc.

If you're purchasing fixed equipment, it makes the most sense to install the most versatile gun. the Impulse is effective up to a 24 wet bulb at only 250 psi and after that if you still need to make snow you go to the air hogs. At a wet bulb in the teens they will put out nearly as much as the hogs at near zero air consumption. They also support Klik manual/semi-auto hydrants which a lot of places are installing to reduce setup time and for safety.

[rogman]

My limited impression of the Impulses is that the are pretty underwhelming at warmer temperatures, but do well as it cools. Like lots of guns.

Not a fan of the Snow Logics. They work on SS because they can pick their window. Everywhere else, fugeddaboutit. A line of them will always have one set to shower mode. You have to figure out your line. Inside, inside, outside, it gets ridiculous. Obviously whatever testing they did before they bought a ton of them was flawed. Nor do I believe in engineering strictly to a spec sheet either. I’m no snow maker, but certain approaches are universal.

[jimmywilson69]

Impulses work well here in southcentral PA. Although when that wet bulb gets above the magic number, its evident... I also don't think my local hill uses the air adjustment as intended. It seems like they are always on 3. I believe warmer is 1 (more air) and coldest is 5 (no or minimal air). Newpy can correct me if I'm wrong on that.

As with all snowmaking equipment you need to monitor it, which is why automation is fast becoming the norm. HKD has created a "lite" automation with the Klik system that requires no hose hookup. I believe those setups still must require some sort of adjustment, which I suspect would be at the airflow control??

[newpylong1]

Yes you are correct. 1 is startup which is a 26 Wet Bulb for an Impulse. All the way up to Stage 5 at around a 12 Wet Bulb. From the factory Stages 1-3 use the same amount of air but the water increases as you crank it up. Stages 4 and 5 drastically step the air down but increase water. You can also change out the venturi valve so that regardless of stage it will always use the most amount of air and thus have better output across the board.

The Klik system just hardwires the air and water lines to the gun, but you still adjust the mixture using the same dial that you would use for non-Klik. It improves upon startup time and safety in that it greatly reduces the chance of injury dealing with high pressure water and compressed air hoses.

To adjust the air/water mixture on an air hog this must be done at the hydrants with incremental turns (and no 2 hydrants turn the same really) and/or in the case of the K3000E you use channel locks on the very end of the nozzle to adjust the mixture.

The HKDs are very simple because you only have 5 options and with minimal experience you're going to know what the output is going to look like. the only variable is really water pressure and each gun has a dial on it. If you've got a little low pressure then you're going to need more air to overcome it.

[Heywood jablowmee]

Meanwhile…., back on topic

[Skid Mark]

damn that's a big number. I wonder where they are going to put them.

Also they better get after it! Its almost September!

Today I saw a stack of them laying on the side of middle Needles Eye

[spanky]

Meanwhile…., back on topic

A Heywood post I agree with!

[ski]

Meanwhile…., back on topic

A Heywood post I agree with!

No kidding . . does every thread have to degenerate into a discussion about low e guns and wet bulbs . . . .??